AFTERNOON
11 March 2015
The Human Rights Council this afternoon held a clustered interactive dialogue with the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on violence against children, Marta Santos Pais, and with Special Representative of the Secretary-General on children and armed conflict, Leila Zerrougui.
Ms. Santos Pais focused on three strategic questions in her presentation. She addressed the progress being made in protecting children from violence, the inclusion of this issue in the post-2015 development agenda, and the ways in which the international community could remain vigilant to address emerging challenges in the protection of children. She noted progress that Member States had achieved in adopting relevant legal provisions and programmes for the protection of children, as well as the activities of regional organizations. Nevertheless, she warned that despite those efforts, violence against children remained pervasive and hidden, with a serious impact on children’s rights and well-being. The upcoming discussions of the new global development agenda provided a golden opportunity to place children’s protection from violence at the heart of sustainable development.
Ms. Zerrougui said that in the six countries that had experienced the most serious crises - the Central African Republic, Iraq, Nigeria, Palestine, South Sudan and Syria - children had been victims of the worst forms of violations. They had been kidnapped, executed, mutilated, sexually abused, forcibly recruited and compelled to commit atrocities, at times against other children. Ethnic and religious divides fed into by the struggles for power and influence had led to the rise of extremists groups. States had to ensure that the measures taken to combat violence against children were well studied, calibrated and regularly revised in order to prevent human rights violations and stigmatization of entire communities. The Human Rights Council could help in combating impunity and ensuring that the perpetrators of violence were brought to justice; that fight must take place with respect of the rule of law and human rights standards.
In the interactive dialogue on violence against children, speakers expressed concern about violence against children, in particular attacks on schools and sexual violence against girls. They agreed that the issue should be part of the negotiations on the post-2015 development agenda. It was also agreed on the importance of informing and engaging parents and caregivers to detect and respond to risks faced by children when using modern information and communication technologies. Digital age had exacerbated the vulnerability of children to exploitation and it was imperative to act collectively and resolutely to overcome that problem. Delegations called for concerted actions from all key actors, including the corporate sector, to create an inclusive, safe and empowering digital environment.
In the interactive dialogue on children in armed conflict, speakers underlined that the proliferation of crises during the past twelve months had endangered the rights of children who continued to be the most vulnerable to the impact of war. A case in point was the atrocities in the last war in Gaza and the systematic violation of the rights of Palestinian children. New problems were posed by the indoctrination of children by extremist groups. For example, in Africa Boko Haram continued to recruit under-age boys as fighters and forcefully used under-age girls as suicide bombers. Despite the impressive body of international humanitarian and human rights instruments, their impact on the protection of children on the ground remained woefully thin. All States were urged to consider raising the minimum age for enrolment in armed forces to the age of 18, and to address major challenges in stopping all use of children in government security forces by 2016, as part of the “Children, not Soldiers” campaign.
Speaking during the interactive dialogue were: Algeria on behalf of the African Group, Ecuador on behalf of the Community of Latin African and Caribbean Countries, Pakistan on behalf of the Organization of Islamic Conference, European Union, Qatar, Chile, Paraguay, Austria, Ireland, Norway, Colombia, Cuba, Mexico, Brazil, Iran, Kuwait, Lithuania, Slovenia, Venezuela, Namibia, China, Australia, Burkina Faso, Belgium, Egypt, Rwanda, Russian Federation, Germany, Djibouti, Belarus, Canada, Ukraine, Latvia, Mali, Greece, United States, Botswana, Italy, Nigeria, France, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Estonia, Israel, Poland, and China. United Nations Children’s Fund also spoke.
The Human Rights Council will hold its annual full-day meeting on the rights of the child on Thursday, 12 March. It will continue the interactive dialogue with Special Representatives on violence against children and children in armed conflict between 12 p.m. and 3 p.m. on Thursday.
Documentation
The Council has before it the annual report of the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Violence against Children, Marta Santos Pais (A/HRC/28/55)
The Council has before it the annual report of the Special Representative of the Secretary-General for Children and Armed Conflict, Leila Zerrougui (A/HRC/28/54)
Presentation of Reports by the Special Representatives of the Secretary-General on Violence against Children and on Children and Armed Conflict
MARTA SANTOS PAIS, Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Violence against Children, addressed three strategic questions: was enough progress being made in protecting children from violence; how could best support be given to the post-2015 development agenda to end violence against children; and how could the international community remain vigilant to address emerging challenges. Over the past year, significant developments had taken place around the world and very concrete results had been achieved in children’s protection from violence. More than 90 countries had adopted multi-sectoral agendas to prevent and address all forms of violence against children. Some 45 countries had comprehensive and explicit legal bans on all forms of violence against children, including within the family. Although much of the violence against children remained hidden, crucial efforts were being made to break the invisibility and address the root causes of the phenomenon. Many countries had engaged in public campaigns to rally support for children’s protection and to overcome deeply rooted attitudes and social norms condoning violence, and in the development of guidance, ethical standards and capacity building initiatives for professionals working with children. Regional organizations and institutions were strategic allies in that global process, and they helped place violence against children at the heart of the regional policy agenda.
Despite those efforts, violence against children remained pervasive and hidden, with serious impact on children’s rights and well-being. The upcoming discussions of the new global development agenda provided a golden opportunity to place children’s protection from violence at the heart of sustainable development. It was a human rights imperative, as well as a smart, cost-saving investment in the future everyone sought. The intergovernmental process of the post-2015 development agenda had identified violence against children as a distinct and cross-cutting concern. Member States’ decisive voices, influence and actions were needed to end violence against children. The development of information and communication technologies presented opportunities, as well as risks for the protection of children from violence. Recently a study was issued to promote an inclusive, safe and empowering online agenda for children. New technologies offered children new means of enhancing knowledge and skills. But they were also associated with significant risks, such as exposure to violent or harmful information, abuse and exploitation. It was therefore necessary to adopt measures to achieve a safe online world for children through adequate policies, strategic partnership with civil society, and cooperation with schools and governments.
LEILA ZERROUGUI, Special Representative of the Secretary-General on children and armed conflict, said that in the six countries that had experienced the most serious crises - the Central African Republic, Iraq, Nigeria, Palestine, South Sudan and Syria - children had been victims of the worst forms of violations. They had been kidnapped, executed, mutilated, sexually abused, forcibly recruited and compelled to commit atrocities, at times against other children. In those and other countries, ethnic and religious divides fed into by the struggles for power and influence had led to the rise of extremist groups. The horrendous crimes committed by Da’ach illustrated how an extremist group imposed terror on millions, using modern communication techniques to spread its ideology. Extremist groups in other countries contributed to the spread of terror. Boko Haram in Nigeria continued to use new brutal tactics, such as using the bodies of small girls to commit suicide attacks. In Pakistan, Tahrik-i-Taliban had massacred 132 children and wounded 133 in the attack on their school in Peshawar. Last year had also been devastating for Palestinian children. Between 8 July and 26 August, at least 540 children had been killed and thousands had been wounded in Gaza; some would remain disabled for life. To date, their ordeal continued and nothing had been done to heal their wounds and give them hope. In Syria, more than 10,000 children had been killed in the four years of the conflict, thousands had been wounded, and hundreds of thousands had been forced to abandon everything and flee the war, facing uncertainties of displacement. The children still in Syria suffered daily violence and brutal tactics of armed groups and the almost daily bombardment of the Government.
No one was challenging the right of States and the international community to take necessary measures to address the threat that those groups represented for stability of the affected countries and international peace and security. But States must see to it that the measures taken to combat them were well studied, calibrated and regularly revised to prevent human rights violations and stigmatization of entire communities. Improving the protection of children in such a difficult context was a major challenge, stressed the Special Representative and said that the Council could help in combating impunity and ensuring that the perpetrators of violence were brought to justice; this fight must take place with respect of the rule of law and human rights standards. Children associated with armed groups were victims, and their detention was not a solution; the Council could propose alternatives to detention and encourage States and donor countries to apply them, as was being done in Chad and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. This did not mean that children would enjoy impunity, and the Council could encourage States to focus on restorative justice and education. Reintegration of children associated with armed groups must be a priority in peace processes, and funds needed to be made available for this purpose. All should work together to ensure full recognition of the essential and protective role of education in conflict. Last year, the Special Representative had launched a joint campaign with the United Nations Children’s Fund called “Children, not Soldiers”, which sought to end the recruitment and use of children by national security forces by 2016.
Interactive Dialogue
Algeria, speaking on behalf of the African Group, said violence against children was without borders, and it was essential that the mandate of the Special Representative of the Secretary-General be continued. It reiterated the appeal for the ratification of the Convention on the Rights of the Child and its Optional Protocol on children in armed conflict. Much remained to be done to coordinate institutions working on violence against children and strengthen the early identification of violence. How could States ensure that violence against children was included in the post-2015 agenda.
Ecuador, speaking on behalf of the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States, expressed concerns about violence against children and more precisely about attacks on schools and sexual violence against girls. It asked what further steps could be taken by the Council to support the mandate of the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on violence against children. The Community agreed that technologies empowered children but it also exposed them to violence and suggested a coordinated approach to deal with these issues.
Pakistan, speaking on behalf of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, expressed concerns about unprecedented challenges for the protection of tens of millions of children growing up in countries affected by conflicts. The Organization deeply regretted that at least 539 children had died as a result of the Israeli operation launched in Gaza in August 2014. They stressed the importance of balancing the need to guarantee children’s access to information and communication technologies and the necessity to prevent them from being exposed to violence.
European Union commended the efforts of the Special Representative to address the multiple challenges affecting children in armed conflict. The European Union was particularly concerned about the proliferation of crises during the past twelve months where children continued to be the most vulnerable to the impact of war. It asked the Special Representative to suggest actions that could be undertaken by the international community towards all parties of the conflict in South Sudan.
Qatar welcomed the efforts of the Special Representatives. Qatar had launched a programme on safe Internet education in order to educate children on potential dangers of Internet use, as well as to learn about ethical conduct on Internet. The Government also supported efforts against the use of children as soldiers in armed conflicts, and to provide educational opportunities in conflict zones.
Chile emphasized that the indoctrination of children by extremist groups posed new problems with respect to their protection, rehabilitation and social reintegration. Moreover, indiscriminate attacks on civil zones in specific regions, the persistence of killings, mutilations and detention of children, sexual violence especially against girls, as well as attacks on schools and hospitals required the urgent attention of the international community.
Paraguay said that nations must work together to address the complex problem of the alarming number of children suffering from violence. The Special Representative of the Secretary-General should continue her work in the context of the post-2015 development agenda. Children should be removed from any type of armed activity and Paraguay called for the end of recruitment and violence against children by extremist groups.
Austria commended Ms. Santos Pais for her crucial participation in the elaboration of the United Nations Model Strategies on the Elimination of Violence against Children in Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice and asked about main challenges in the implementation of strategies and measures to curb the risks regarding violence against children and information and communication technologies. Austria asked the Special Representative on children in armed conflict about her experience in using the Guidelines for Protecting Schools and Universities from Military Use during Armed Conflict in her work.
Ireland said that the promotion and protection of children’s rights was central to its aid programme and its development policy. Ireland asked Ms. Zerrougui how she intended to consolidate progress achieved and to advance dialogue with non-State armed groups in order to obtain further commitments to end grave violations against children. Ireland also asked Ms. Santos Pais about ensuring that the protection of children from violence remained at the heart of the sustainable development agenda.
Norway was deeply concerned about unprecedented challenges for the protection of millions of children growing up in countries affected by conflicts, and underlined the need for a coordinated response to address the needs of children exposed to violence carried out by extremist groups. Norway agreed that the protection of schools from military use in armed conflicts had to be strengthened. It also agreed on the importance of informing and engaging parents and caregivers to detect and respond to risks faced by children when using modern information and communication technologies.
Colombia was currently engaged in a peace process to prevent further child victims, and had undertaken actions to prevent sexual violence against children and the recruitment of children by armed groups, and to ensure the rehabilitation of former child soldiers. Colombia had engaged in ways to combat violence against children both in armed conflicts and in other contexts, such as within the family. These measures sought to strengthen the prevention, detection and response to different forms of gender and domestic violence.
Cuba said millions of children were suffering and were the victims of forced labour, organ trafficking or sexual exploitation. The beneficiaries of child trafficking were principally in developed countries. A coordinated response to that suffering was needed. Cuba said Internet governance and content appropriate to children had to be better addressed. The protection of children was at the heart of the Cuban revolution, and a series of plans and policies had been adopted in this regard.
Mexico said that the twenty-fifth anniversary of the adoption of the Convention on the Rights of Child provided an opportunity to reflect on the progress made to combat violence against children. Children in armed conflict suffered the worst consequences of violence and Mexico thus supported the work of the Working Group on Children in Armed Conflict of the United Nations Security Council.
United Nations Children’s Fund welcomed the continued close cooperation between the Special Representative and the United Nations Children’s Fund on the campaign “Children, Not Soldiers” to end all recruitment and use of children by State security forces by 2016. It also welcomed the thematic focus of the Special Representative on the potential and risks associated with children’s use of information and communication technologies. It called for concerted actions from all key actors, including the corporate sector, to create an inclusive, safe and empowering digital agenda.
Brazil said that providing every child with a life free from violence was crucial for the development of a culture of peace, tolerance and respect. It firmly supported the mandates of the Special Representatives and their efforts to mainstream the fight to eradicate violence against children in the United Nations system, and to build awareness and give prominence to the rights and protection of children in armed conflict.
Iran said that the digital age had exacerbated the vulnerability of children to exploitation and it was imperative to act collectively and resolutely to overcome this problem. Despite the impressive body of international humanitarian and human rights instruments, their impact remained woefully thin on the ground. A case in point was the atrocities in the last war in Gaza and the systematic violation of the rights of Palestinian children. The murder of innocent children in Syria and Iraq by Da’esh was frightening.
Kuwait noted that children suffered gross violations by extremist groups and said that it paid special attention to the protection of children in accordance with international instruments. The Constitution protected the family, motherhood and younger generations, while the sale of children and child pornography were prohibited by the law. The dimension of the problem was large and children must be protected from an early age by teaching them values of peace and responding to their needs.
Lithuania drew the attention of the Human Rights Council to the situation of children in Ukraine and the impact of the conflict on their basic rights, including health and access to education. There were indications of children being recruited into armed groups in the self-proclaimed region of Donetsk and Luhansk. Lithuania asked the two Special Representatives for their advice on how States could implement the Guidelines for Protecting Schools and Universities from Military Use during Armed Conflict.
Slovenia asked the Special Representative on violence against children how children could contribute to finding optimal solutions for the difficulties that girls faced in the criminal justice system or to help raising awareness about these problems. Slovenia remained appalled by the continued use and abuse of children in armed conflicts. It echoed the call of the Special Representative on States to enact legislation explicitly prohibiting and criminalizing the recruitment of children in armed forces or groups.
Venezuela said the post-2015 development agenda had to include a violence against children dimension. Venezuela was concerned that violence against children continued to be a global problem and underlined the importance of reparation and redress for victims. Legal systems had to receive resources and training on how to prosecute cases of violence against children. Venezuela was in full compliance with the prohibition of the participation of children in armed conflicts.
Namibia was concerned about the exploitation of children by armed forces and armed groups, and urged all States to consider raising the minimum age for enrolment in armed forces to the age of 18. It noted with great concern the situation of children in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Namibia underlined the importance of raising the awareness of children on the risks they faced as a result of exposure to information and communication technologies.
China took note of the reports and welcomed the Special Representative’s efforts to end violence against children. The Government took a holistic approach to laws that regulated violence against children. Specific procedures banned the use of violence against minors during criminal proceedings. China attached great importance to the protection of children in armed conflicts, and its military service law regulated that area accordingly.
Australia noted that much had to be done with respect to violence against children as new challenges emerged. It encouraged the Human Rights Council to take particular note of the recommendation that related to the alarming threat posed by extremists groups for the protection and rehabilitation of children.
Burkina Faso said that violence against children was one of the most serious issues and that it could be felt throughout society: in the family, school and media. The major challenge in Burkina Faso was the protection of children against dangerous labour. To that end, the Government had adopted on 4 March 2015 a 2015-2019 programme to fight that phenomenon.
Belgium supported the idea of focusing on information and communication technologies and child sexual exploitation in the next resolution on the rights of the child. Belgium welcomed the annual round table to be organized with the Council of Europe which would primarily address children’s protection from sexual violence. Could more information be provided on the recommendation to psycho-social rehabilitation?
Egypt was convinced that global efforts on ending violence against children should be based on an approach of prevention, protection and redress. Children continued to suffer from a wide range of massive and grave violations in the context of armed conflicts. Children in the Palestinian territories continued to suffer on a daily basis under the Israeli occupation.
Rwanda said that the protection of children against violence was among Rwanda’s national priorities, with particular emphasis on sexual abuse. Despite much progress on the use of children in armed conflict, many challenges remained, including the use of children by extremist groups and attacks on schools. Rwanda reiterated its support to the global campaign “Children, not Soldiers.”
Russia stressed that children continued to suffer from the horrors of war and that equal attention must be paid to the six categories of violations outlined in the Security Council resolution. Russia drew attention to violations of the rights of children in Ukraine as a result of the armed attacks on Donetsk, where the blockade had exacerbated the humanitarian situation. Syria had taken steps to alleviate impacts of the conflict, including the criminalization of recruitment of children under the age of 18.
Germany thanked Ms. Santos Pais for keeping violence against children on the top of the United Nations agenda, particularly in the sustainable development goals, and asked how further ratifications of the Third Optional Protocol to the Convention could be supported. Germany welcomed the focus on accountability in the report on children in armed conflict and asked how measures by the Human Rights Council could address the rehabilitation and reintegration of children indoctrinated by extremist groups such as Boko Haram.
Djibouti placed the protection of children at the core of its development strategies and had strengthened national legislation with instruments for the promotion and protection of the rights of the child. A draft Law on Childhood was being discussed by the Council of Ministers, with the view of adoption of a code for the protection of minors. Djibouti asked about good practices in the fight against violence against children.
Belarus noted that the protection of children from violence was very topical at times when new technologies were rapidly developing, and welcomed the inclusion of this topic in the post-2015 development agenda. It was in the family that a perception of reality was taught to children. Thus families had to be first included in the new development agenda. Belarus was currently developing a set of laws to combat violence against children.
Canada said that the protection of children against violence was fundamental, and welcomed the Special Representative’s focus on attacks against schools in armed conflicts. Children had the right to live in safe and humane communities, and Canada therefore asked for elaboration on how children could be protected against radicalization by extremist groups. It also asked the Special Representative to reflect on how the international community could work to create a safer online world.
Ukraine underlined the suffering of children in the Ukrainian territories occupied by the Russian Federation. Many children were affected in multiple ways, as they were internally displaced persons and belonged to different minorities. Militants had recently repeatedly abducted Ukrainian orphans and tried to illegally transfer them into Russia. Ukraine invited the Special Representatives to take a closer look at the situation.
Latvia welcomed that the “Children, not Soldiers” campaign had gained momentum and was starting to bear fruit. What major challenges remained to reach the objective of no children in government forces in conflict by 2016? Latvia also asked what further measures could be taken at global, regional and national levels to strengthen law enforcement activities to ensure the protection of children against violence.
Mali stressed that everything had to be done to prevent violence against children, in times of peace and in times of war. Such crimes should not be subject to any statute of limitations. In Mali, which was slowly overcoming a complex crisis, children had suffered from being enrolled in armed groups, forced marriage and rape. Several measures had been taken to facilitate the access to justice of victims of those crimes.
Greece shared the concerns related to abductions of hundreds of girls and boys by terrorist groups. Greece welcomed the campaign “Children, not Soldiers” and its positive results, as well as efforts to establish a dialogue with non-State armed groups. In Greece, anyone engaging a child under 15 in armed conflict could be imprisoned for at least 10 years. International cooperation to combat grave violations of children’s rights was paramount.
United States agreed that criminal acts perpetrated against children or adults through information and communication technologies must be prosecuted and asked about best practices in investigations and prosecutions. Concerning children in armed conflict, the United States recognized that many States were committed to ensuring that children were not used in their armed forces, and asked how States could effectively use age verification procedures to prevent the unlawful recruitment and use of children in armed forces.
Botswana was deeply concerned about the high number of children affected by violence and agreed that information and communication technologies were a priority area to focus on and that it was up to States to protect children from dangers they represented and allow them to maximize on the positive aspects of technologies. Botswana noted with concern the unprecedented challenges for the protection of children in 2014, including detention without criminal charges, attacks on schools and hospitals and rampant sexual abuse and killing of children.
Italy expressed concern about attacks on schools and on education that had happened in various countries last year. More often, violence against children was perpetuated by children themselves, and frequently took place in schools or in their vicinity. Ms. Santos Pais was asked about best ways to tackle this problem. Further, Italy sought the opinion of Ms. Zerrogui on how to tackle high risk situations in countries that were not in conflict yet, but where armed irregular groups were active and represented a serious threat to children.
Nigeria acknowledged the role of the United Nations Security Council in its continuing efforts to mainstream the issues of children and armed conflict into both thematic and country-specific agendas, and in bringing in new and innovative measures. The use of children in armed conflict continued worldwide, particular by insurgent or armed groups. Boko Haram continued to recruit under-age boys as fighters and forcefully used under-age girls as suicide bombers.
Remarks by the Special Representatives
MARTA SANTOS PAIS, Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Violence against Children, stressed the importance of placing violence against children on the post-2015 development agenda, and encouraged States to preserve achievements already made in this regard. She underlined the importance of indicators on violence against children and harmful practices against girls. There was a need to capitalize on good practices that existed already, and enhance national capacities to collect data. She underscored the importance of engaging with all stakeholders, including children themselves, in the debate. Good practices existed for the empowerment and protection of children from new technologies, including raising awareness of parents, caregivers, teachers and children. In terms of investigation and prosecution of child pornography on the Internet, she underlined the importance of a better coordinated approach. She advocated for the creation of a platform where international and national actors working with children and children themselves could share their experiences. She stressed the need to have child-sensitive proceedings in all schools to allow children to report abuses.
LEILA ZERROGUI, Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Children in Armed Conflict, said it was heartwarming to see that the campaign “Children, not Soldiers” enjoyed such broad support across the board. It was important to have in place mechanisms for age verification which would ensure that underage soldiers would be handed over to protection agencies. On engagement with non-State actors, Ms. Zerrogui said that the campaign had already moved beyond States, but the most extreme groups did not have interest in engaging with either States or the United Nations. Without non-State actors, nonetheless, it was impossible to have a comprehensive strategy. There were groups more aware of the fact that their Governments refused child recruitment, and tried to follow the suit.
The Special Representative stressed that fighting impunity was at the heart of the campaign. Judiciary mechanisms ought to be put in place; progress of a country which criminalized recruitment of children could be followed through various human rights mechanisms. When the political will was not there, other means had to be employed, including pressure and sanctions by the Security Council and the African Union. On the way the Council could help, Ms. Zerrogui said that in almost 100 per cent of cases children did not choose to join armed forces, but were compelled to by various factors. It was important to work on ways of bringing those recruited children back and re-integrating them in society, by working with community and religious leaders. Children had to be cleared of the trauma of the violence and guilt. The Council could request in-depth studies and implement solutions through existing mechanisms. Attacks against schools were recognized as an international crime and ought to be criminalized at the national level as well. Alternatives to detention existed; it should be avoided as it left a devastating impact on children and they sometimes died of hunger while detained. Extension of civil registration should be encouraged, and civil registration had to be free.
Interactive Dialogue
France expressed support for the recommendations that would encourage States and civil society to develop national strategies to protect the rights of the child, particular in the digital age. It asked the Special Representative to highlight measures that could address the problem of girls who were victims of violence, as well as measures that would release children from the hands of armed groups.
Saudi Arabia said that the report on violence against children and progress made in that respect was at the heart of the post-2015 development agenda priorities. Saudi Arabia had adopted a system of protection for children, including in cases when they were denied access to education, mistreated or discriminated. The system prohibited any work involving any children.
Thailand urged the need for more efforts to raise public awareness on the long-lasting impact of violence on children’s development. The Government had recently launched the campaign “End Violence against Children” in cooperation with UNICEF to raise awareness among parents, caretakers and teachers. It also worked to promote safe internet environment in cooperation with Microsoft.
Right of Reply
China, speaking in a right of reply, said that China separated religion from education, and provided protection for various religions. Thus, the religious needs of followers of Tibet were fully respected and protected. Tibet also had a number of Muslims and Catholics. The Chinese Government did not run all of Tibetan affairs, but only those of national interest, while in other matters Tibet had autonomy.
